Ron Paul Supporters – foaming at the mouth (updated)

The deranged Ron Paul support that goes by the handle “Tiger” (he’s more of a kitten actually) challendged me to look at Ron Paul’s record and where he stands on the issues.  He wanted me to give him a single issue where I disagreed with Ron Paul.

Here was is inane email to me intermixed inside an email that I had sent him.  Again his words are in red and blue as they were in his reply – caution excessive profanity.    I answered just as he asked which is found below.

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Well, this debate is over after I finish what I have left to say … first of all someone once said in so many words … ‘to argue with fools is to debase yourself’ and I feel that’s what I’m doing to continue this BS with you …

First of all your family didn’t do any more for this country that mine did … my father and uncle served in WW2 … my grandfather served in WW1 … my son is on his 4th trip to Iraq and my brother and I served in the korean war … that family emotional stuff is just so much bull shit … what facts have you presented to back up such a stupid statement … so fuck you and the horse you rode in on …

we have lived well I will admit … but that is because we have worked hard all our lives to accumulate a little comfort and peace of mind … after all I worked my way through college for almost 10 years … no gov’t help either … not one single loan … so fuck you and the horse you rode in on …

And if you would come up with some ‘facts’ that I could refute … maybe this diatribe would be worth pursuing, however … you haven’t put any facts or anything material out there that are worth discussing … just a bunch of name calling and trying to ruin a good and honest man by trying to associate him with criminals and terrorists … so fuck you and the horse you rode in on …

No need to answer this post because you are blocked my man … you are blocked where your belong … in the trash bin with the rest of your stupid bull shit statements … not facts but simply aspersions …

Have a bad day and crawl back in the hole you’ve been living in …

I have more to say below …

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First off…

Don’t you DARE question my loyalty to this country or my understanding of Freedom.  Where did that come from … I never questioned your or your family’s loyalty … I only questioned your BullShit arguments and name calling … I and my Family have earned the right to say any damn thing we want to.  I never questioned that either …  What have you done besides enjoy the comfort of Freedom that my family provides to you without our asking anything in return.  That is a very bad argument … what have you done lately … your family has never provided shit for me … that’s just more emotional bullshit …

At 11:27 AM 11/23/2007, Tiger wrote:

I’m not the least bit mentally challenged … I just lose it when I run into a dumb shit like you …

Well this “dumb shit” is still waiting for you to refute one single point that I made. I’m after facts … not points … I noticed by the deafening silence that you are side-stepping the challenge.  Chicken. What have you said that I, me, should refute … I don’t give a shit about your fallalcious arguments … Chicken … wow arent we getting out there … Why don’t you deny being young  or a democrat … what have you personally done for this country …

Why should Ron Paul have to ‘disassociate’ himself … if he tried to do that he would spend all his time disassociating himself … and … who cares if these groups support them … their underlying philosophy is not so far from the ’sheeple’ who just won’t admit it … wake up and smell the coffee …

All Ron would have to say is:

“I appreciate the help that anyone wants to give to my campaign to take back America.  It is disturbing to me however, that hate groups such as the KKK, Stormfront, etc.. think for some odd reason that I am friendly to their cause or would seek to enact policies in my Government that would be beneficial to their beliefs.  The reality is the exact opposite.  I am morally opposed to everything that they stand for.” How in the hell do you know what he would say … why don’t you go back and look at this man’s voting record … that would tell you a lot if you were smart enough to read it … but you would rather sling mud and bullshit …

Then if anyone brought up the Hate groups support to him again he could simply point back to his prior statement and say he had already addressed the issue.  I believe he can address that situation … if and when it comes up  … I know for one thing … he won’t dodge it like most of the candidates would …

Strange that Ron Paul will not make such a statement.  Why does Ron Paul have to answer anything like that … just because you want him to … well, he doesn’t have to answer to you either …

I have a Ph.D., in finance and I’m a CFP … that’s certified financial planner … so the people I know and associate with are pretty damn smart people … and 90% of them are for Ron Paul … and if the ‘fringe’ or cult groups support him … so what … quit pickin’ at straws …

Your comment is just like that made by Theater Critic Pauline Kael when Nixon beat McGovern in 1972.  “How can that be?  No one I know voted for Nixon.”  You know … that sounds just like a statement my wife made to me years ago when we were getting ready to go to a party … she said … I just can’t go to this party … when I asked why … she said … My hair’s too TIGHT … When I asked … she tried to explain … but the more she said … the deeper in she got … and after several minutes … she finally admitted that she ‘just didn’t want to go’ … but that’s what made her hair too TIGHT … plain bullshit …

If you live in an echo chamber you only hear your own thoughts.  I guess you’re not happy with yours because you keep trying to give them to other people … who don’t give a shit what you think …

Let’s get this country back on the track that our forefathers started and put the constitution first … in every piece of legislation that’s passed … how about a candidate with a clean record … a constitutional record …

You and I probably do not disagree on the direction that we would like to see the Country head and on the few that we might disagree on they would be subtle differences.  Not the night/day difference between say Ron Paul and Hillary.  That’s the first intelligent thing I’ve heard you post … amen …

1. Out of the UN (unless there were marked changes in how it operates!)

2. The UN out of the US.

3. A Stronger Military – let’s replace the 1 millions soldiers that the force was cut by during Clinton 1.

4. Hope that SCOTUS votes in favor of the 2nd Amendment refering to individual Right and not as a “collective” right.

5. etc…  My gosh … you’re gettin’ closer and closer …

You must live in a hole david … you also must be very young … and at worst a friggin’ democrat … you really don’t know what true freedom is …

Oh I know what freedom means.  Do you consider 44 to be young?  I also have four kids (17, 15, 14 and that I would like to see grow up in a free country that continues to enjoy as many freedoms as we can. Not a bad idea … so why can’t Ron Paul help make that happen if we could get him in washington … after .all … he’ll follow the constitution … and not try to use it against the citizens of this counrty …

I have lived as a minority in other Countries and I am always very happy to return to this land where my Ancestors have fought in every war this Country has ever been in.  We have been on these shores since 1663.  My Grandfather (retired Navy Officer) was at Palmaya Island the morning of 12/7/41 setting up a Radar station and his Brother-in-law (retired Navy Enlisted) was in the Oklahoma down on Battleship Row.  My Grandmother was 8 months pregnant with my Dad that morning and was dressing her three year old son when a bullet from a Japanese plane came though the roof of the House and hit him in the leg.  Luckily it did not hit bone.  That Uncle retired from the Navy.  My Dad retired from the Army and prior to the Army received Honorable Discharges from the Marines (Reserve in College) and the Navy (transferred to the Army in 1968).  How many people have you heard of transferring from the safety of a Navy Cruiser – he was in the USS Northhampton – to the Army at the height of the Vietnam War where he did two tours flying Birddogs low and slow over the Jungle?  Dad currently is working as a Contractor for the Marines at Camp Pendleton.  Oh government work … a contractor that lives off the government … (I couldn’t resist that cheap shot… LOL ) One of his other Brothers retired as a Crew Chief on C-141’s and C-5’s.  I was Marine PLC in College and worked gathering intelligence overseas.  I (and my three months pregnant wife) had to leave the Country we were in “rather quickly” when my Case Office compromised my position.  I have a First Cousin currently in Iraq with the Army leading an Intelligence/Interrogation team and I have a step brother who will be going over this coming Spring.  Yes I understand about IRAQ … my son is a major in the army and is on his 4th tour over there since 1990 …

Here is a comment from my Dad about Ron Paul.  “Never fear … your pop hasn’t lost his marbles, yet.  And if I do, I can not imagine any set of circumstances that would have me voting for that wacko.”  Well, there you go … name calling again … that doesn’t say too much for your pop … maybe I’ll just call him a ‘nutcase’ for name calling … after all … just what is it that makes RP a  ‘whacko’ … maybe you could define that for us, we the sheeple … if someone doesn’t agree with your basic political philosophy … then all you have to do is call them a ‘whacko’ and that solves everything … wow …

Damn … this is getting to be fun … I just might not block you … just to hear what other names you can call … that is without facts … 

David, you sometimes sound like a ‘reasonable’ person … I believe your intentions are good, but by casting ’stones’ at Ron Paul isn’t gonna get him or lose him any votes …

Here’s my challenge to you … can you name one position or issue that Ron Paul has that you would disagree with … that would be a good place to start … that is if you wanna win this debate …

Go to this website and look around … his better qualities are posted there …

http://www.web2businesssolutions.com:80/likes_this/Index.html   …

Posted there you will find ‘101 Reasons’ to favor Ron Paul … if you want to debate any of these facts …

I’ll gladly pick up the brick !!!   J

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My researched answer back to him.

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Your continued use of gutter level foul language suggests volumes about your real level of education, emotional stability and maturity. I never demeaned you with a swear word.  I certainly insulted you.  But never with swear words.  Same with Ron Paul.  I called Ron Paul supporters morons but I do not believe I called their Candidate one, or any other name.

I may not like a candidate but I at least respect that he is wanting/trying to do something.

You can’t get your way so you resort to name calling.  Just another temper tantrum.

I’m glad to hear that you served.

You stated “you really don’t know what true freedom is” That is certainly questioning my loyalty and understanding of this Country.

On the original topic I gave you plenty of citations showing that Guy Fawkes was a treasonous bastard and not a patriot. Or did you forget that when you were calling me names?

I gave you plenty of information that hate groups support Ron Paul (I DID NOT say that Ron Paul wanted their help).

Please give me one example of where I called Ron Paul a name like you have leveled continually at me.  I never called him any name nor have I sworn at you.

Unlike you I took up your challenge and visited the website you provided.

I certainly liked #54.  I can’t stand Sean Hannity either.  I hear his voice on the radio and I change the station.

However, I disagree with him on pulling up the draw bridges and thinking that we can ignore the rest of the world. In a fantasy role playing game that would be fine.  However, this is the real world with bad people out that seek to do us harm.  They will seek to do that regardless of whether we are “over there” or sitting on our own porch doing our knitting.

I disagree with him on being a Gold-bug.

I disagree with him on legalizing drugs

I disagree with him on legalizing pro

I disagree with him on redefining Marriage

I disagree with him being against something as obvious as AMBER Alerts (S 151 http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2003/roll127.xml)

I disagree with him not wanting the Military to assists in Border Patrol (HR 2586 http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll356.xml)

I disagree with him not restricting US Funding of the UN. (HR 2745 http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll282.xml)

I disagree with him on allowing Lobbyist to bundle contributions with disclosing (HR 2316 http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll423.xml)

There are other example but none of these are reasons I would vote against him because there are many more items with which I agree with him (like SS, etc…).

All those issues on that site are “points” that you said you did not want to hear.  You wanted “facts”.  The fact of the matter is that I could not support him because he would get nothing done.  Even if elected.

Well, you asked “Why can’t Ron Paul help?”  The simple answer is that he would be President and not King.  As President he has to play with others.  He has shown through his entire legislative career that he is incapable of doing that.  In one regard that could be viewed as a positive as he has stood for his principles. On the other hand since the world does not walk in lock step with him so has as actually done very little.  The quote on that website you sent is very telling “Dr. Paul is the one exception to the Gang of 535.”

Facts: Let’s look at his record in Congress and take the 107 Congress as a snap shot.  Note the Republicans (Ron Paul’s Party”) were in control then.

Click on his House Website. http://www.house.gov/paul/legis/welcome.htm then click on the Sponsored legislation for the 107th Congress.  He sponsored 68 pieces of Legislation.  64 were “referred to committee” that means they went nowhere.  3 were voted against 62-364, 71-359 and 47-375.  The single piece of legislation that was passed was an amendment to not fund the ICC 264-152.  That was a great amendment to offer and to have won but it shows how ineffective he has been working with others.  Being President is all about working with others.  You are not King.

On his Co-sponsored legislation from the 107 Congress: He cosponsored 323 pieces of legislation.  Of those…
1. Passed a resolution proclaiming Mexico’s importance to the US
2. Passed a resolution in support of the War on Terror
3. Recognize Ronald Reagan’s birthday
4. Reduce Marriage Penalty
5. Phase out Estate Tax
6. Increase benefits for Railroad Workers
7. Permit private schools to have tuition programs not be taxed
8. Expand Child tax credit
9. Tax Relief Act
10. Expand Adoption tax credit
11. expand education IRA
12. Deduction of Interest
13. Employer provided education assistance

The other 310 pieces of legislation were either “referred” or defeated.

He might be “right” on many issues but if he can’t get even a reasonable portion of what he want’s passed what good is he other then to offer platitudes and feel good rhetoric to his followers when nothing is really accomplished.

The measure of a man is what he can accomplish not just what he says he wants to accomplish.

Also as for your admitted cheap shot about my Dad being a Contractor.  He lives at his home in Gilbert Arizona on the weekends and drives (not flys) every week to Camp Pendleton (or to Fort Huachuca every couple of months) to help the Marine Corp with their Mission.  While he retired Army the old saying “Once a Marine…” certainly applies.  He has done that every week for the past 4-5 years. He will be 66 this January.  I could not begin to embark on an effort like that.  Look up Dedication in the dictionary and you will see his face.

An Election is too important a thing to be squadered away with a protest vote.

Like I said before to you…

Let’s look at it from the Primary Election standpoint. For the sake of argument let’s limit it to three candidates.

Candidate 1 = You are totally against him winning your “Parties” nomination
Candidate 2 = You agree with some positions and disagree with others.
Candidate 3 = You LOVE everything he stands for but he is polling at 2% and has no hope of actually winning.

You vote for Candidate 3.  Other friends of yours also vote for Candidate 3 splitting off votes that could have gone to Candidate 2 resulting in Candidate 1 winning.

Now we move to the General Election

Party 1 = Hillary
Party 2 = Candidate 1

You had already decided that Candidate 1 would not get your vote.  There is no way that you will vote for the other Party so with an Electorate split almost 50/50 your sitting on your hands and throwing a temper tantrum results in Hillary winning.

Same thing applies if Candidate 3 runs as an “Independent” and splits off votes from Candidate 1.  Hillary wins.

That is the definition of Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I just took the VoteMatch quiz.

http://www.speakout.com/VoteMatch/senate2006.asp?quiz=2008#sec0

It lists my “preferences” in order as..

Tancredo
Hunter
Brownback
Huckabee
Gilmore
Guiliani
Thompson
McCain
Romney
Richardson
Paul
Obama
Edwards
Clinton
Biden
Dodd
Gravel
Kucinich

Ron Paul scores down with Obama, Edwards and Clinton.  Interesting…